Let me ask, and what exactly is Your doubt? Explain, please!фрагмент wrote:In the brain there? I now doubt it....АМЕА wrote: To understand what is happening in the brain there is much more simple electrophysiological methods, the NEC, for example!
And much more informative, by the way, not so technical and confusing...
Encephalograph
Last edited by АМЕА on Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:35, edited 1 time in total.
I apologize for the long absence, been busy.
Here I sketched a diagram for one channel of EEG. Beausoliel, power supply, ADC, controller and communication with the computer through the bridge USB-UART Converter with galvanic isolation.
The person connects the three electrode - to-ground (connected to the GND line of the scheme), the referent (connected to the instrumental amplifier) and signal (connected to +). The land is usually molded on the chin, assistant - ear, or around it, a signal is where you need to alpha on the head.
Wire screened, the screens are connected to a special circuit tracking voltage.
After the instrumentation amplifier band pass filter, a first highpass filter 0.5 Hz, then low pass filtered at 40 Hz. Amplification of 1000 times the maximum output signal +/-2 V, all that will be more go beyond the boundaries of the measurement ADC. I.e., the input signal can be +/- 2mV.
Further, the circuit shifts the level from the bipolar signal (+/-2 V) to a unipolar (0-4V), then ADC controller and data is transferred to the PC.
In the diagram there is no filter to suppress network interference of 50 Hz. In analog form it is still not fully suppress, we do this already in the figure (either in the controller or in the PC).
Optocouplers isolation, you can use any, depending on connection speed. A chip bridge USB-UART you can also use any.
Power supply - transformer on 9 (or 6) volts with the two output windings. After rectification we obtain two voltages of +/- 9V. Among them there are standard linear stabilizers of the received power for the whole diagram +/- 5V. All operatsionnyi get a bipolar supply (except the last, which shifted level).
I think that to make a working device is difficult. Nodes are posted as is (i.e., how we use them). To build "on the knee" the scheme is likely to simplify, to pick up more common items, etc. I'm Afraid that in this I have a little help, I can only suggest.
EN/file/Schematic%20Prints.pdf">http://neurotech.ru/file/Schematic%20Prints.pdf<
Here I sketched a diagram for one channel of EEG. Beausoliel, power supply, ADC, controller and communication with the computer through the bridge USB-UART Converter with galvanic isolation.
The person connects the three electrode - to-ground (connected to the GND line of the scheme), the referent (connected to the instrumental amplifier) and signal (connected to +). The land is usually molded on the chin, assistant - ear, or around it, a signal is where you need to alpha on the head.
Wire screened, the screens are connected to a special circuit tracking voltage.
After the instrumentation amplifier band pass filter, a first highpass filter 0.5 Hz, then low pass filtered at 40 Hz. Amplification of 1000 times the maximum output signal +/-2 V, all that will be more go beyond the boundaries of the measurement ADC. I.e., the input signal can be +/- 2mV.
Further, the circuit shifts the level from the bipolar signal (+/-2 V) to a unipolar (0-4V), then ADC controller and data is transferred to the PC.
In the diagram there is no filter to suppress network interference of 50 Hz. In analog form it is still not fully suppress, we do this already in the figure (either in the controller or in the PC).
Optocouplers isolation, you can use any, depending on connection speed. A chip bridge USB-UART you can also use any.
Power supply - transformer on 9 (or 6) volts with the two output windings. After rectification we obtain two voltages of +/- 9V. Among them there are standard linear stabilizers of the received power for the whole diagram +/- 5V. All operatsionnyi get a bipolar supply (except the last, which shifted level).
I think that to make a working device is difficult. Nodes are posted as is (i.e., how we use them). To build "on the knee" the scheme is likely to simplify, to pick up more common items, etc. I'm Afraid that in this I have a little help, I can only suggest.
EN/file/Schematic%20Prints.pdf">http://neurotech.ru/file/Schematic%20Prints.pdf<
And to make the working device in production - troublesome and expensive (Think Doppler will confirm). And cost such a device would be at least 1000, green, if you divide the cost issue volume.Доплер wrote: I think that to make a working device is difficult. Nodes are posted as is (i.e., how we use them). To build "on the knee" the scheme is likely to simplify, to pick up more common items, etc. I'm Afraid that in this I have a little help, I can only suggest.
The people, well, there are no "simple" EEG are either working or non-working device. Any working device will cost money, and the number of channels the price does not change. EEG in General, the complex electrophysiological device. Therefore, we do not presume - there are no us manufacturers worthy of the EEG. But DC-EEG is much more simple in terms of technology, machine, and work on the adaptation of "for the people" technology check analysis of infraslow electrical activity of the brain we have already done in their model of ANAS. By the way - cheap, too, failed, but the information content and biological relevance of the obtained data compensates for this lack. And by the way - has made the reduction in price 10 times of the price of the parent device (NEK) that we believe their considerable merit.
PySy: And about soft still not sure... fill out the number on the CSS - it does not enjoy the alpha rhythms...
PPS: Doppler looked at your website - respect to You and uvazhuha
EEG is really the most difficult instrument (well, except for evoked potentials), but production is not all bad. The firm is small (10 people), can optimize the cost of production. For 200-300 dollars to do household EEG, of course, will not work. But 500-600 is more realistic.
All methods of assessing an individual's condition on EEG classical, it is a lot of literature (especially foreign) and a large methodological base. Your method I do not quite understand, do you measure just the galvanic displacement? I understand that the bare electrodes lousy imposed, and it may be different at times? In General, it was interesting to read about the method, preferably American literature. Recently, we have domestic "studies" don't trust, and that the SCENAR can be done or zirconium bracelet.
The price you have is quite large, a full 24-channel EEG is cheaper than your 12-channel device. Than such price is caused?
All methods of assessing an individual's condition on EEG classical, it is a lot of literature (especially foreign) and a large methodological base. Your method I do not quite understand, do you measure just the galvanic displacement? I understand that the bare electrodes lousy imposed, and it may be different at times? In General, it was interesting to read about the method, preferably American literature. Recently, we have domestic "studies" don't trust, and that the SCENAR can be done or zirconium bracelet.
The price you have is quite large, a full 24-channel EEG is cheaper than your 12-channel device. Than such price is caused?
We measure the potential difference between the reference point (leather hands) and active points on the scalp according to the 10-20 scheme. The parameter of interest - the dynamics and amplitude. The electrode impedance is very important parameter and it is controlled by the resistance and in the younger and especially the older models. The most similar methods is an omega - potentials, but we have a lot of patented differences in the methods of registration of UPP. As a result, we remove possible, GSR and "isolate" the potential vascular origin-dependent brain activity, and not from the skin resistance. The cost of equipment and marketing decision of the leadership of this small Company (less than 10 persons) in the absence of competition (the technique has been patented) and in the presence of a small but steady demand, the value of which of the price does not depend on (checked). The technique is not new - it's almost 30 years, but the market of medical equipment for 6 years. The only way to reduce prices - the release of younger models of ANAS, which we did.
About EEG for 600 bucks - the demand will be for 10 devices, sure.
About EEG for 600 bucks - the demand will be for 10 devices, sure.
Last edited by АМЕА on Mon Nov 22, 2010 18:30, edited 1 time in total.
Just overpriced and the relevance of the method (especially in the West) will inevitably lead to the emergence of competitors. And on account of the demand and prices for medical equipment - a special correlation there. On the market there are different companies, very similar parameters, but with the difference in price in 2-3 times. But, by the way, in recent years this situation has improved through public tenders. Was quite possible to kill a competitors reasonable price (though they even better device in the parameters).
And about 10 devices - most likely it will, but to the firm for survival in the market is important a wide range. It is difficult to predict what devices will be needed in the near future, and what after 5 years. So we try to close all needs.
And about 10 devices - most likely it will, but to the firm for survival in the market is important a wide range. It is difficult to predict what devices will be needed in the near future, and what after 5 years. So we try to close all needs.
Colleague, it will be great if your company will undertake the manufacture of "home" EEG. At one time I could not "mollify" the engineers and the management for similar work. He would like to buy your device.
About competitors for our products - everything is very simple - make a biopotential amplifier for infraslow brain activity is easy and inexpensive (relatively). For example, a PHYSICIAN, Neurosoft and many dugie release their EEG channel for the SCP, but they measure it incorrectly, and the main thing - only we have the right to analyze UPP from the point of view of the Patent on the when the soft starter with cerebral energy metabolism.
The only thing in this (by the way, this grow cost - with the Patent holders have very much to share ). Methods NEK has long existed in medicine and science and to compare their data with colleagues, neobhodim it is the NEK, and not a Physician and their ilk. This situation will not change as long as the license for the Patent will be in exclusive use of the NGO "Neuroenergetics". The value of alternative devices without Patent Fokin (by the way, the patentee no longer a he) is highly questionable.
About competitors for our products - everything is very simple - make a biopotential amplifier for infraslow brain activity is easy and inexpensive (relatively). For example, a PHYSICIAN, Neurosoft and many dugie release their EEG channel for the SCP, but they measure it incorrectly, and the main thing - only we have the right to analyze UPP from the point of view of the Patent on the when the soft starter with cerebral energy metabolism.
The only thing in this (by the way, this grow cost - with the Patent holders have very much to share
). Methods NEK has long existed in medicine and science and to compare their data with colleagues, neobhodim it is the NEK, and not a Physician and their ilk. This situation will not change as long as the license for the Patent will be in exclusive use of the NGO "Neuroenergetics". The value of alternative devices without Patent Fokin (by the way, the patentee no longer a he) is highly questionable.Doppler, and now stand in the place of a Buyer who wants exactly YOUR EEG, with the same options that you offer. And quirky baryga from medical equipment at auction interrupts your offer some other, cheaper and more primitive device. And the Buyer is not entitled to refuse such replacement and receives not what he needed.Доплер wrote: has Become quite possible to kill a competitors reasonable price (though they even better device in the parameters).
Okay, if we are talking about EEG - my Buyers in the Gostorg vparivali EEG is NEK!
and then argued to the Commission that it analogues! Well, then really fell for his greed in the black list of unfair suppliers, but I also suffer .So... the auction - a stick about 2 ends.....
You see, the approach to EEG reveals how we see ourselves - a need to harmonize: that wire, that is the nodes-neurons, here the pulse signals, and we like the machine itself, try itself to debug. Edingtonite hemisphere.АМЕА wrote:фрагмент wrote: Let me ask, and what exactly is Your doubt? Explain, please!
Am I wrong? Where I don't understand?
If the instrument meets all specified requirements (otherwise he can not win) and it is cheaper then replacing adequate and fair. "Favorite manufacturer", the device which is very much like the buyer in this case, of course, will not get rolled back, but I do not mind it, I am for a competitive market.АМЕА wrote: Doppler, and now stand in the place of a Buyer who wants exactly YOUR EEG, with the same options that you offer. And quirky baryga from medical equipment at auction interrupts your offer some other, cheaper and more primitive device.
However, when the tender really want to push through the device of a particular manufacturer, be sure to find some "important option", which there.
Yes, there is something just in the way... it is Doubtful that such a complex subject as capacity analysis of EEG rhythms in General can be used in a domestic context. Let me explain: NO one really still knows, where are these same rhythmsфрагмент wrote:АМЕА wrote:You see, the approach to EEG reveals how we see ourselves - a need to harmonize: that wire, that is the nodes-neurons, here the pulse signals, and we like the machine itself, try itself to debug. Edingtonite hemisphere.фрагмент wrote: Let me ask, and what exactly is Your doubt? Explain, please!
Am I wrong? Where I don't understand?
And even more so to try to correct EEG activity, and with the help of simplified non-medical EEG.... doubtful. EEG showed itself plainly ONLY in the study of epilepsy, so the diagnosis of CCI.Praise his "swamp", I know, but the NEC is much more straightforward and easy to understand methodology that can help to harmonize brain activity.
The NEC and is AMEA STANDARDS (the factors in a clinically healthy person, such as pressure and temperature). But the monitoring of the approximation of the measured indicators to the standards and impact studies on the brain activity with the help of the NEC it is accessible and understandable to the user. I'll note that for the NEC is the non-core functions, namely those that are suitable for Amateur use. In functional diagnosis NEC - a tool for evaluation and mapping of cerebral glucose metabolism and AAR tissues of the brain.
Dopler, if we are talking about an adequate replacement - I'm IN. However, You wrote about what you can offer the device cheaper and worse performance. And here I am AGAINST
<Yet the history of EEG is much longer. And therefore stats, and achievements, etc. Again, if your methods do not apply abroad, it is at least suspicious, and at best limits the number of reliable sources of information and methodology development. The more you tell me about the qualifications of our doctors, their reviews are not always reliable.
). Application of our method in the well-known Russian clinics speaks for itself.No, the different skills, like any employees in any other fields. Good people still less, and this has to be considered.
I am not inclined in absentia to judge your technique. First, this is not my area of expertise (I'm a developer of electronics), we have a physician who dictates the direction of development of the company from a methodological point of view. Secondly, all I know about her, I read on your website, the necessary information from other sources.
And again I am absolutely not going to find fault with domestic developments, but simply expressed a doubt that they are a little (maybe still a little) interested in the West.
I am not inclined in absentia to judge your technique. First, this is not my area of expertise (I'm a developer of electronics), we have a physician who dictates the direction of development of the company from a methodological point of view. Secondly, all I know about her, I read on your website, the necessary information from other sources.
And again I am absolutely not going to find fault with domestic developments, but simply expressed a doubt that they are a little (maybe still a little) interested in the West.
Doppler thank you very much for the diagram !!!
we are interested in the INPUT stage of biosilica - all of the filter and the ADC in the DSP is the CPU .
Tell me - what are the tolerances on resistance and capacitance ???
And another VERY important question - take a look at this video here http://1nsk.ru/blog/31054.html?top that's where I biosilk ( and then for EEG) ,what do you think about this???
we are interested in the INPUT stage of biosilica - all of the filter and the ADC in the DSP is the CPU .
Tell me - what are the tolerances on resistance and capacitance ???
And another VERY important question - take a look at this video here http://1nsk.ru/blog/31054.html?top that's where I biosilk ( and then for EEG) ,what do you think about this???
Just in case I will specify - you know the ADC signal without a filter must be applied?
Resistors better than 1 %, ceramic capacitors be sure (all those that are not polar). At least X7R ceramic, NP0 where possible.
The movie looked, they measure the electromyogram (EMG). She compared the EEG quite a different range (from 50 to approximately 2000 Hz) and a very different intensity (at least 10 times more). From all I have cited scheme for EMG is only good the first stage, the filters need other.
Resistors better than 1 %, ceramic capacitors be sure (all those that are not polar). At least X7R ceramic, NP0 where possible.
The movie looked, they measure the electromyogram (EMG). She compared the EEG quite a different range (from 50 to approximately 2000 Hz) and a very different intensity (at least 10 times more). From all I have cited scheme for EMG is only good the first stage, the filters need other.
Ops!!! I didn't know what ADC you cannot signal without filter (((((
why ???
take the chain - input cascade beausoliel - DSP processor - it's such a wonderful thing in which you can implement ANY filter ,network interference, etc .
The ADC converts the same way and interference and a signal in digital form.
why ???
take the chain - input cascade beausoliel - DSP processor - it's such a wonderful thing in which you can implement ANY filter ,network interference, etc .
The ADC converts the same way and interference and a signal in digital form.
After sampling the entire signal spectrum is from 0 to half the sampling rate (Nyquist theorem). If the analog signal has spectral components greater than half the sampling rate, there is a so-called Leasingowy effect (superposition of spectra). It's all about you can read at least on Wikipedia. I.e. prior to discretization is necessary at least to limit the signal bandwidth half of the sampling rate.
And about the DSP - they are all very different, an integer from 16-bit to 64-bit floating point. And the complexity of their application differ significantly.
For EEG, especially single-channel, DSP is not necessary, here and on the 8-bit AVR can do. You will first the computer do the processing, and then the DSP. And ANY filters you want ANY (very large) precision of samples and coefficients, a rare DSP could handle it.
And about the DSP - they are all very different, an integer from 16-bit to 64-bit floating point. And the complexity of their application differ significantly.
For EEG, especially single-channel, DSP is not necessary, here and on the 8-bit AVR can do. You will first the computer do the processing, and then the DSP. And ANY filters you want ANY (very large) precision of samples and coefficients, a rare DSP could handle it.
SPS !! put a couple of filters on the input and DSP why - because - this PLATFORM will neurofen ,ALTARIA ( TPP presets) EOG + heart rate monitor ( for OS) ,the removal of signals from the throat in your sleep and stuff !!!))) a full-fledged platform for entering a LUCID DREAM ,this is all starts ......
Maybe it's part of a more powerful field? ECG, EEG, rheoencephalography, etc. up to a lie detectorАМЕА wrote: Let me explain: NO one really still knows, where are these same rhythms
what is it?It turns out right in the quote: "what is important – beyond their horizons. They were like the ant,
who sees small and did not see much". John. Orwell, "1984"
PS. The resistance of the corpse to 10,000 times more living.
There is already a field there.A method of DC-EEG? You said that "NO one really still knows, where are these same rhythms"I continued with a quote.АМЕА wrote:Offer instead of Orwell's study of materiel:
lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2006/isbn9512269562/isbn9512269562.pdf
I'm interested in is this: how. Because not truly knowing the origin of the EEG it is impossible to correct them without the participation of the patient. I would like it without participation. Because EEG I understood reading the previous page that there is a self. http://www.mindmachine.ru/viewtopic.php?p=25358#25358
