Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements EMDR.

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Wed Jun 19, 2013 0:57

Воффка wrote:But if I have a scale of emotions, before the session of 9 points, and after 10 what to do?
Repeat without a break (probably two times three). This, incidentally, is a common phenomenon. Especially when people forget to breathe deeply and evenly during the session, or(and) the focus on images and thoughts instead of specific bodily sensations. If after the third time did not let go (which is very seldom) then must remove the glasses and headphones and continue through touch (for example, alternately to the right and left knee).

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Алексей А. » Tue Sep 17, 2013 18:51

Hello, Andrey Patrushev and all forum members. You here a lot of things already tested and tried, so I write with a question. Please help to understand some points related to EMDR.

About EMDR I learned somewhere 7-8 months ago, spent a few sessions with the help of a computer program and was very impressed by the tried and tested experiences and results. During the study of the problems of the sensations in my body and head was like ecstasy, but the problems themselves were studied for 40-60 minutes standard session, as described in Shapiro, after techniques simply do not believe that everything is so simple and easy and look at yourself as another person.
But at the time I stopped work, as found on the idea about draining the polarities that prevail at Zivorad slavinskogo.

Digging this idea and realized that people do not have a clear understanding of what "drain (merge) polarities". Someone wrote that it will no longer divide the world in half and start to see different shades, someone writes that there is no difference in the perception of polarities, will see the world such what it is. In General, no clear understanding of the process of draining the polarities, and polarities of the drain looks like the Erasure of opposing views.

Talked to psychologists, polarity, they are called sub-personalities, and say what is right to integrate them each other, not to merge. Here is a short correspondence:

Why can't you connect subpersonalities/polarity? What is the result? To lose time? Or it will reveal the true self without compromise sublicensee?

- Probably because every personality - their function and purpose, each personality is useful in its own and adapts accordingly, each person at the right time and in the right place. When subpersonalities agree, it turns out more like this: "I find a relationship that complements my freedom without limitations." After all, "freedom" and "relationship" - part of the man himself, just very different. And the lack of difference between freedom and lack of freedom - like the loss of part of yourself, it's like an amputation. Environmentally unfriendly.

In this regard all some questions:
1. Does the standard procedure of EMDR drain polarities in the context of Slavinskogo? The fact that the integration of subpersonalities is clear, for example in humans, the belief "I don't want a relationship because they will lose freedom" - the conflict of polarities. The development of EMDR for this belief is easy to understand that it is possible to find a relationship where you feel free, or even realize that the relationship does not mean automatically freedom, in General, there are many options, but is the integration of these polarities sink in the same Peat or GP-4?

2. In consideration of the problems EMDR removes the charge from problems and new positive belief is brought to 9-10 points on the scale. Is there a drain polarities we distill minus or a plus?

Actually, I believe EMDR method is one of the most environmentally friendly methods to troubleshoot problems that you only want to understand whether there is this notorious drain polarities Or polarity need to drain it separately and then work out the charges for EMDR? The idea in any case needs to be changes in the neural networks, which blocked the traumatic memories with EMDR a direct feel of movement in the brain, the same process should be and Peace, because the body is one and the same. Maybe it's just wound around the drain of the polarities, because you need something to attract an audience?<

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Tue Sep 17, 2013 19:01

Alexey A.
1. No, not happening.
2. No, not happening.
"Sink polarities", IMHO, is very strange name for something good, because the subconscious mind takes all the meaning of the word. I, for example, the word "drain" is associated with the toilet... :?

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Алексей А. » Tue Sep 17, 2013 19:36

Andrei PatrushevP
It turns out first you need to merge the polarities, and then to work out the charges on EMDR?
Or even drain polarity is an abstraction, invented Slavinski or taken from the Dianetics Habbada? It still work with neural networks, as it is not called.
Андрей Патрушев wrote:"Drain polarities", IMHO, is a very strange name for something good
Is it possible for this something good to come through EMDR?

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Tue Sep 17, 2013 21:46

Алексей А. wrote:it Turns out first you need to merge the polarities, and then to work out the charges on EMDR?
I do not know. I have made something not is obtained... :?
Алексей А. wrote:Or even drain polarity is an abstraction, invented Slavinski or taken from the Dianetics Habbada?
Yes, IMHO, an abstraction, is in essence a product of the mind. The subconscious is, IMHO, not working with abstractions...
Алексей А. wrote:is it Possible for this something good to come through EMDR?
Using EMDR can be a lot of something to come, not only to the good, especially if you work with fictional categories, not with specific feelings and sensations. :?

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by ЛИЛИЯ-Р » Wed Sep 18, 2013 13:59

Андрей Патрушев wrote:[quote="Alexei A.
Is it possible for this something good to come through EMDR?[/quote]
Андрей Патрушев wrote:Using EMDR can be a lot of something to come, not only to the good, especially if you work with fictional categories, not with specific feelings and sensations.
What is the fictional category , and how through them we can come to something not very good or maybe even good?

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Алексей А. » Wed Sep 18, 2013 20:41

Andrew, thank you very much for the answers, only you can add specifics, just by your answer shows that you are a little playfully answer, and therefore, the words of a common sound.
Андрей Патрушев wrote:don't know. I have made something not work...
It is impossible to drain charges Paatu or what?
Андрей Патрушев wrote:Yes, IMHO, an abstraction, is in essence a product of the mind. The subconscious is, IMHO, not working with abstractions...
Did some digging on the forums Paatu, people who butt more of them more merged polarities who are most deeply merged who has experienced enlightenment, and who it is not present, in total darkness.

I think the Slavonski Dianetics, with its brainwashing, color and smell.


Oleg Matveev, I think you know all about him, wrote about this idea:

"I think people are just stupid, they don't get what do you mean "fused polarity", as usual.

Merged = they removed the ENTIRE CHARGE, and they understood. This does not mean that they do not work anymore, or that I "don't know". Different, and work, the only question is, who's in control - I or they find me."

Based on this, it turns out this is exactly what happens in the standard EMDR procedure, we first remove all charges with the same polarity - a negative situation, and then working on the second polarity - positive-determination that it is perceived and accepted us and it is celebrated on the scale, bringing affirmative charge up to 9-10 points. What do you say?

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:44

ЛИЛИЯ-Р wrote:What is the fictional category , and how through them we can come to something not very good or maybe even good?
The human brain is a master manipulator. Having at its disposal such equipment, as speech, the brain begins to play, and then he falls into his own trap. For example, continuous and ever-changing process, which is characterized in our culture, the verb "to love", the brain effortlessly makes the noun "love", then creates from this a noun for the whole category (a mother's love, etc., passionate love, etc., unrequited love, etc.), and then begins to apply the rules of governance adopted in the language for nouns, to continuous ever-changing process (more love, less love)...

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:50

Алексей А. wrote:on this Basis, is obtained this is exactly what happens in the standard EMDR procedure, we first remove all charges with the same polarity - a negative situation, and then working on the second polarity - positive-determination that it is perceived and accepted us and it is celebrated on the scale, bringing affirmative charge up to 9-10 points. What do you say?
I again, do not is obtained... :? Each tool is designed for specific operations. EMDR works well with specific feelings. Polarity - the essence of the generation and mind games.
"Drain polarity" the man begins to rejoice that he finally did something for yourself, a loved one and slightly rises on the tone scale. When you Wake up on "the tone scale" (by R. Hubbard), automatically disables some of the emotional problems plaguing human before, and he was even more pleased. :) But as soon as he is in a situation similar to the one that initially caused these emotional problems, then everything comes back "normal". If You discharged a particular emotion (in a particular situation) with EMDR, it will not return, and if You, moreover, hit the "case" that runs down the whole speed of... 8)

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Алексей А. » Thu Sep 19, 2013 20:27

Andrew, thanks again for the answers!
Андрей Патрушев wrote:and if You, moreover, hit the "case" that runs down the whole speed of...
It can be a small explanation of what you mean by "case" and what is the standard deviation, the Shapiro such concepts did not seem to be.
Андрей Патрушев wrote:EMDR works well with specific feelings.
And why only with feelings? For EMDR to work very much and the problem can come from different angles, you can begin working with negative beliefs or samoopredeleniya with Intrusive thoughts, emotions, images, sensations in the body and that EMDR and wonderful that it is not necessary to fence any design, I work with what is, and what POPs up at the time of the study. And all work is carried out very green for the body and psyche.

By the way, at the expense of polarities, can be seen by the same processors of the peat, if you look at their activities for 2-3 years, many of them began to work on other systems, this Oleg Matveev their methods invents, calling for tricky long-known psychotherapeutic methods, etc.

Andrew, in the end, you, as an expert and above all a practitioner, what can you say about the merge of polarities? Whether they drain in parallel with EMDR, or is it all futile and even may be harmful to the psyche?

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Thu Sep 19, 2013 20:56

Алексей А. wrote:Can a small explanation of what you mean by "case" and what is the standard deviation, the Shapiro such concepts did not seem to be.
"Case" (R. Hubbard) - this is a key episode (the episode in which there is pain, or(and) unconsciousness) in SKO - System air-Conditioned Experience (S. Grof). R. Hubbard has also come to an understanding SKO, but S. Grof is a more systematic (and, importantly, more clearly) described.
Алексей А. wrote:And why only the senses? For EMDR to work very much and the problem can come from different angles, you can begin working with negative beliefs or samoopredeleniya with Intrusive thoughts, emotions, images, sensations in the body and that EMDR and wonderful that it is not necessary to fence any design, I work with what is and what POPs up at the time of the study.
Exactly - with specific feelings, emotions (proprioceptive sensations), called beliefs, identities, thoughts and images. And the more specific You are, the faster and more stable getting the results.
As for the results, then there is always the temptation to resolve all problems in a single blow, to cut, so to speak, "Gordian knot", but once You begin to abstract away from specific feelings (sensations), once the results begin to "float" and everything returns after a while to normal. And Slavinski and his some followers of this trend, IMHO, is observed. But while You use of peat and his ilk-specific manifestations of the problem, these methods work just as good (neither better nor worse), and EMDR and other methods of "shaman group" (as I call them :)) - TAT, feasibility studies, Dropping in Essence, Matrix Reimprinting (plus a few that immediately and I do not remember).

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Thu Sep 19, 2013 21:12

Алексей А. wrote:Andrew, you, as an expert and above all a practitioner, what can you say about the merge of polarities?
Well, we here we started to "merge polarity" using a Rainbow-Arc. While self-reporting is not enough... :?
Алексей А. wrote:whether to merge them in parallel with EMDR, or is it all futile and even may be harmful to the psyche?
At least, it is not necessary to do it in parallel, for it is said, - "a jealous God". :)

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Thu Sep 19, 2013 21:32

Алексей А. wrote:ABOUT EMDR I learned somewhere 7-8 months ago, spent a few sessions with the help of a computer program
I wonder - what program is it?

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by bofara » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:25

Андрей Патрушев wrote: Well, we here we started to "merge polarity" using a Rainbow-Arc. While self-reports of little
Well, I'm happy. By the way, Andrei V. recommend, if possible, please e-some psychological tests - of course I do, 'polarities through a rainbow' and unsubscribe. Now working with the polarities of 'right-left' and their derivatives - 'right-left' etc. are also written in the program rainbow and Vice versa - 'left-right' about. This addition to practice K-13 for balance and sinhronizacija hemispheres of the brain:
bofara wrote:did on the program Andrei Vadimovich - rainbow setting as affirmation to polarity: "left-right", "left right", "left right" and Vice versa - "right left", etc. When you do almost about the revitalization of the hemisphere, i.e. for example doing something at the same time hands and feet trying to run this program and thus further influence the communication between the hemispheres /it happens sometimes that the establishment of those ties looks like threads between the hemispheres/.

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Алексей А. » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:59

Андрей Патрушев wrote:But as long as You use peat and his ilk-specific manifestations of the problem, these methods work just as good (neither better nor worse), and EMDR and other methods of "shaman group" (as I call them ) - TAT, feasibility study, Dropping in the Entity (plus a few that immediately and I do not remember).
Andrew, it turns out that people fall into a kind of dependency from the same Peat, they are working on the problem, there is some relief, then, when getting into a similar situation again makes itself known and the man running it again to work out Paatu, but if you abandon the system to be a setback in the achievements?
Андрей Патрушев wrote:Interesting - what program is it?
Integrator of eye movement, here is a link to description and download: http://psyberia.ru/soft/eyemover
If it is Vista or Windows 7, there you need to download an additional file.

The program simulates the movement of a hand therapist, it is convenient that you can change the speed of movement of the figure. There's still a little mixed on the recommendations of the NLP, they say, will choose shape, color, size, but IMHO it doesn't matter, because the essence of EMDR is bilateral stimulation of the brain, which can be done not only through the visual channel. In General, the program I like.

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:12

Алексей А. wrote:Andrew, it turns out that people fall into a kind of dependency from the same Peat, they are working on the problem, there is some relief, then, when getting into a similar situation again makes itself known and the man running it again to work out Paatu, but if you abandon the system to be a setback in the achievements?
From Peat, EMDR, nanny, feasibility study, any seminars, religions, etc. etc... If you do it wrong. :?
Алексей А. wrote:Integrator for eye movements
Well, this is not EMDR is EMI (Eye Movement Integration) is Integration By Eye Movements (IPDG) is a technique developed by famous nlpers might Steve Andreas. There is a slightly different Protocol than in EMDR...
For this program we need either a large screen or face the face should be close to the screen to draw to the edge of the screen hit the edge of the field of view for normal efficiency.

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Алексей А. » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:38

Андрей Патрушев wrote:From Peat, EMDR, nanny, feasibility study, any seminars, religions, etc. etc... If you do it wrong.
From EMDR and how it is possible to become addicted if there is a specific and objective work with neural networks without any esoteric beliefs and stories?
Андрей Патрушев wrote:Well, this is not EMDR is EMI (Eye Movement Integration) is Integration By Eye Movements (IPDG) is a technique developed by famous nlpers might Steve Andreas. There is a slightly different Protocol than in EMDR... There is need to either the big screen or the face the face should be close to the screen to draw to the edge of the screen hit the edge of the field of view for normal efficiency.
Yes, I say that there are blended with NLP, but I take a standard Protocol for EMDR, described by Shapiro and use the movement of the figure instead of moving the hands of the therapist, the essence in bilateral stimulation, can be performed alternately touch myself by the shoulders or hips or a sound or vibration. The fact that there is Steve Anderson writes in his Protocol, it is possible not to pay attention, he just decided not to lag behind the opening of Shapiro and allegedly brought something of their own.
In fact, having coding skills or gif animation you can own something similar to do, because the essence once again in bilateral stimulation of the brain.
On account of the fact that need to close the person's face to bring to the screen, I don't know, I'm good. After all, if the glasses alternately illuminate the point, they also do not go to the edge of the field of view?

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by ЛИЛИЯ-Р » Fri Sep 20, 2013 13:48

Алексей А. wrote: Because if the glasses alternately illuminate the point, they also do not go to the edge of the field of view?
Because in the Navigator sunglasses are made so that the LEDs are located at the corners of the eyes with transparent lenses.

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Fri Sep 20, 2013 18:30

Алексей А. wrote:from EMDR And how it is possible to become addicted if there is a specific objective the work with neural networks without any esoteric beliefs and stories?
Well, well... You get the Doberman Pinscher, and the other, so your "just to piss out"? :)
Алексей А. wrote:the Fact that there is Steve Anderson writes in his Protocol, it is possible not to pay attention, he just decided not to lag behind the opening of Shapiro and allegedly brought something of their own.
Steve Andreas had developed EMI, when Shapiro was still under the table foot went... Book on EMI student S. Andreas is a complete fundamental work on PTSD, while the book Shapiro is a description poorly structured and not fully meaningful phenomena...

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Алексей А. » Fri Sep 20, 2013 19:27

Андрей Патрушев wrote:well, Well... And other then Your "just to piss out"?
About to piss I didn't say no but as you say in shamanic techniques does not focus on neural networks, on anything: the spirit, the soul, the aura, on the chakras, but not neravnyh networks. In the same Peace where this is clearly stated and be placed at the base of the method?
Андрей Патрушев wrote:Steve Andreas had developed EMI, when Shapiro was still under the table foot went... Book on EMI student S. Andreas is a complete fundamental work on PTSD, while the book Shapiro is a description poorly structured and not fully meaningful phenomena...
Hmm, had now a small historical excursus, Shapiro came to the discovery of the method of EMDR in 1987, and the path to this as she writes in the book began in 1979. Steve Andres has developed EMI in 1989, and everywhere it is indicated that the Method of Integration by Eye Movements (EMI - Eye Movement Integration), developed by Connirae and Steve Andreassi, is faster and more efficient version of EMDR - Desensitization and Processing by Eye Movement (EMDR - Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing).
Here is the link: http://meisa.biz/eye-movement-integration.php (I do not know how to remove the smiley, you can copy and paste into address bar)
So what is there to argue who was first.

Steve Andreas as I understand it complements EMDR knowledge about what the different positions of the eyes give access to different parts of the brain, and hence to different components of the experience, and added hand movements of the therapist not only hand movement left and right, but also circular movements, the movement of the infinity sign, etc. Need to see what Shapiro in the book wrote. it seems she was also different variants of the movement of the hand. Looked, it, too, all these movements are given in the book.
But bilateral brain stimulation can be carried out through bodily touch and through sound stimuli.

Then what is another fundamental difference between EMRD from EMI?


What's the name of the book is a student of Andreas? it would be interesting to read it.<

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Fri Sep 20, 2013 19:56

Алексей А. wrote:but no one as you say in shamanic techniques does not focus on neural networks, on anything: the spirit, the soul, the aura, on the chakras, but not neravnyh networks.
People need a beautiful wrapper. No wonder about NLP they say that it is too mechanistic. :? But, for example, the triple visual-kinesthetic dissociation as the speed and efficiency much superior to EMDR, and more profound personality changes than with 6 stepper reframing I have not seen at all...
Алексей А. wrote:So what is there to argue who was first.
Andreas began to use EMI in the mid 70-ies in their seminars, but never made it the focus because NLP developed a more effective and deep technique, and EMI was one of the demonstrations for oculomotor reactions...
Алексей А. wrote:what is the book a student of Andreas? it would be interesting to read it.
Is called Eye Movement Integration Therapy The Comprehensive Clinical Guide by Danie Beaulieu, PhD, Crown House Publishing Ltd, p.385 ISBN1904424155

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Fri Sep 20, 2013 20:00

Алексей А. wrote:Steve Andreas as I understand it complements EMDR knowledge about what the different positions of the eyes give access to different parts of the brain
No, it was R. Dilts.

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Алексей А. » Fri Sep 20, 2013 20:21

Андрей Патрушев wrote:But, for example, the triple visual-kinesthetic dissociation as the speed and efficiency much superior to EMDR, and more profound personality changes than with 6 stepper reframing I have not seen at all...
Then a little not clear why you undertook the development of the instrument, if NLP is so powerful that override everything else?

Can briefly about the triple visual-kinesthetic dissociation? You mean triple meta-frame?

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Fri Sep 20, 2013 23:37

bofara wrote:by the Way, Andrei V. recommend, if possible, please e-some psychological tests
Perhaps the Luscher test in the comparative option (or fast amounts payable) will be the most objective.

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Re: Desensitization and reprocessing (injury) eye movements D

Post by Андрей Патрушев » Fri Sep 20, 2013 23:39

Алексей А. wrote:Then have a little not clear why you undertook the development of the instrument, if NLP is so powerful that override everything else?
What is there to understand - I am one, and devices and drives mnooogo... :lol:
Алексей А. wrote:Can briefly about the triple visual-kinesthetic dissociation? You mean triple meta-frame?
Search taxis... :wink:

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